Hey Trent,

I agree with all of those scriptures. We disagree on the time line. From what I read of your beliefs of the Kingdom is that you believe the Kingdom is now and the church is the Kingdom?

If I'm reading you correctly, then that is where we diverge. The sorting porcess for the Kingdom is taking place now in the calling our of the ekklesia or what we call the church but that is not the whold Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is not for Christians alone. When Jesus came He said the Kingdom is at hand and that Kingdom has been established in the hearts of believers as we are ruled directly by God through Jesus Christ within. However, the Kingdom does not end there. The Church is a very important part of the Kingom but we are not the whole enchilada.

I don't believe you have to see the Kingdom as a Biblicist does in order to be saved. I know you're going to be ther whether you understand it as I do or not, tee hee. I get dibs on Maui!---that was thrown in as a head scratcher....

The point is that I read the Bible as a history of God's people, past, present, and future and according to that perspetive, Armeggedom is not the end of the world. It is the end of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the hands of man and a return to direct rule by God though Jesus Christ. The eternal state is after that rule.

If you have grown up understanding the Bible according to Covenant Theology, your just going to think I'm dense or that I'm making things up. I understand your viewpoint,(I think) but somehow, I don't think you see mine at all.

Pam

Pam,

==[From what I read of your beliefs of the Kingdom is that you believe the Kingdom is now and the church is the Kingdom?]==

Pretty close. Rather then lay it all out here, I just blogged about it.

===[We disagree on the time line. ]===

As far as time line, the Kingdom came within the tabernacle, and temple, and then Jesus was the flesh-temple of the Spirit of God, the first flesh-temple, that would expand as we unite with Him, all who are willing.

===[The Church is a very important part of the Kingdom but we are not the whole enchilada.]===

The branch is a part of the plant, but not the whole plant. But whatever is true about the plant, is true about the branch.
Right?

===[I don't believe you have to see the Kingdom as a Biblicist does in order to be saved. I know you're going to be ther whether you understand it as I do or not, tee hee. I get dibs on Maui!---that was thrown in as a head scratcher....]===
Here is a head-scratcher for you ... where was Maui before the first day? ... then that exact stake shall completely be yours beyond the last day.

I understand the fascination with the material cosmos, I really do. When a physical blade scraps through our physical skin, we hurt. We are flooded by our senses that are only in tune with the material (and blind to spritual reality), and so it calls to us with the deception of true substance and reality, when it is nothing more then a figment in flux ... revealing its identity as transitory and fading. That physical blade, was space dust, then magma, then ore, then a fender, then a can, then a bullet, then a brake-pad, and finally made into a blade. What will it be 100 years from now? 1000 years from now? Its identity is only founded on the figment of temporal illusion. When the planet is enveloped by the next supernova, or a blackhole churns this corner of the galaxy again, that physical blade, that seemed so real ... will cease to impress from the grand scope of time. Even less impressive is the creation, when revelation lifts thought to the Eternal.

The deluge of sensitory input through our five senses, convinces us that only what is physical is what is real. Our minds are given over to materialism, to the point that we begin to think of God's Spirit as something less then what is physical. Spirit is given less credit as a substance then a faint vapor. Only because it is not seen, nor felt, not touched, nor tasted. Its form is not merely subtle to us, it is completely invisible to us ... in audible ... and immaterial. Yet the mystery is that it is far more substantial then anything that is visible, material, or audible. The Great I AM is that He is that He is. And the creation simply comes and goes ...

So, understand that I can't go along with God-logic (theology) that deminishes God's promises to something as trivial to me as a physical material hope and promise, something for our eyes to behold, and nose to smell. To me that would tarnish the surpassing luster of what I know to be far surpassing what is detected by our physical senses. I view those notions as materialistic pandering, and carnal invention.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

1 Corinthians 2:7-11
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

===[I don't think you see mine at all]===

If it is what I can see with my eyes (like a physical city on a physical planet) then why would I want to gaze at something that cheap and temporary? What is "revealed to me by His Spirit" are things that "eyes cannot see," "nor ear hear," "nor minds conceived." The glory that I am destined for is "before time began."

Pam, Maui is seen, is it not? Jerusalem, as a residential town, is seen with eyes balls, yet these things are physical and transitory, not eternal as God's Kingdom is eternal.

Ripening for the harvest,
Trent

A few quotes came to mind regarding your comments above... here is a bunch of food for thought on this subject: ;^)

"Search not in the world, or through the man-made things of the world, for the Kingdom resides in you."

"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....the ransom is paid.
And this same One, the Begotten of the Father, shall rule the nations.
He is a Kingdom, a glorious Kingdom,
without death and dying, nor anything destroyed,
where not even one tear is found...
the Kingdom without end."


"Come, all you faithful, be gathered.
Live and breath in Me...
I am your Oxygen, the Breath of Life, the Waters of Knowledge and Joy
cleansing all those soiled and bruised, healing them in My blood,
transforming them in the wake of My coming,
comforting them by the love of My heart that flows as a river,
bursting forth in them as a wellspring of love, hope, faith and obedience,
returning them to the Garden and My joy, the Kingdom of God which I am,
because of their salvation which is in Me, who is their Maker and their Breath...
having become as they, dying, breathing My last breath as a man...
raised to glory, so I could come and live in them,
and with them, forever and ever...
Life without end."

"Thus says the Lord your God:
The Messiah has come, and is come, and is coming quickly, and will come again in His glory.
Watch and behold the mighty and awesome power of the Holy One of Israel.
He shall sit on the throne of His glory, and every knee shall bow.

My will is done on earth as in Heaven.
My Kingdom is come, and His name is Jesus...Christ...the Lord."

"His Kingdom is coming, and is already here, and is yet coming, and is also in you"

"...surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world':"

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

"Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

"To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.'

"Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!'For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

"My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

"Come now, and abide forever in My joy, which is forever lasting happiness in Me, lived in eternal life in My Kingdom."

"Behold the first kingdom, an everlasting kingdom, the Father's kingdom."

"All will be whole in the second Kingdom...all may have and give life that is received from God.

Behold the third Kingdom, for it comes down from above. None shall bring forth life...the cycle is complete...corruptable is incorruptable...all earthly has become spirit.

None are found lower than the angels...
all dwell with their God, forever and ever.
Amen.

The universe has become their playground, for they now trust in God, and He in they.
Roam free, My beloved...My creation is yours.
Amen."

I did read your note, but the defintion of the Kingdom we Strongly disagree on. All the Parable in the bible talk of abundance and overflow pressed down and shaken. Not what I feel you were implying. I say this to say that is why you are still not understanding. You keep going back to given and taken away from Job who suffered a mere 9months. And went from a poverty mindset of fear over his childerens sin to freedom in God's abundance.

All who came to Christ wanting something got what they asked and more. All who did not want did not get. That is the blessing the Father gave us starting with Adam and ending with heaven. To lavish upon us.

I had the Spirit tell me some thing I hope this helps. I was wondering how I could convey the abundance he wishes for all and not just a few and the power we chould be opperating in. This is what the disciples and Jesus were perscuted for not their obeidence to the law.

He siad to me "There are three of us"

Cling to the Father you recieve abundance, goodness, and mercy.
Cling to Christ you recieve his mind, salvation and Life.
Cling to the Spirit you recieve the miracle power.

I used to only cling to Christ myself. Now that I am cling to the relationship with the Father and the Spirit as well I have seen a shift in my acess abundance and supernatural power. I also found the places where I had the most sin in my life were the places that stemed from the belief that I may never have abundance and power if God chooses. I cried out to God for more than average and he said
"I will open the flood gates of heaven for you."

He then taught me and showed me how to have a realtionship with the spirit. read Acts 19. I was those men who had not submitted my Spirit through Baptism. This was over a year ago. He has most recently taught me the true love and abundance I have in the Father and as I have sown into his law I have seen abundance in areas of realtionships, finance, and joy!!

Christ blood gave us a total relatinship with the Father and Spirit. Disciples died a Christ's death but they also lived a Christ life of power and abundance as all the things Christ did they did and more!

FYI ... This is an old article ... make note of the dates on the first two comments.

Tamara,

Hi beloved sister!

you say: """I did read your note, but the defintion of the Kingdom we Strongly disagree on."""

Yeah ... I know. We cannot both be correct.

You say: """All the Parable in the bible talk of abundance and overflow pressed down and shaken."""

Nope.

"""I say this to say that is why you are still not understanding."""

Like I said, I was not seeking to understand or even contemplate your viewpoint. I was merely expressing my own because you asked.

"""You keep going back to given and taken away from Job who suffered a mere 9months. And went from a poverty mindset of fear over his childerens sin to freedom in God's abundance."""

I was not attempting to invoke Job. Whether job said it or not doesn't weigh into my point. I am speaking from the heart when I say that God gives and takes away. If Job said otherwise (and he doesn't, but for the sake of argument ... if he did) then Job would be wrong.

YOU say: """All who came to Christ wanting something got what they asked and more. All who did not want did not get."""

What is the difference ... when I say : """We all get to choose, beloved. What we seek will be given."""

Are we not saying the same thing?

I've said it before and I'll say it again ... I know that every good gift comes from above ... from the Father of love ... given in love and even in abundance. "Lavish" is a good word ... and I like it lots ...

"""I used to only cling to Christ myself."""

How can one say that they have been with Jesus and not been with the Father?

How can one say that they have been with Jesus and not with the Counselor / Holy Spirit?

I don't understand these things. I don't understand drawing distinctions between things of which there is no difference.

They said, "show us the Father." Jesus answered, "Have I been with you this long and you have not recognized me?" Jesus and the Father are One.

Jesus said that He was sending "the Counselor" and in the next breath claimed that it was actually Himself that was coming, for He and the Counselor are One.

Before the New Testament came out and John and Jesus rocked the planet ... and we get marque verses to make posters at sporting events like John 3:16 ... Israel had another verse that was their John 3:16. I mean, it would be the verse to write on a poster-board at their sporting events for it represented the highest revelation given by God in the Torah: De 6:4
" Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

I'm concerned about something Tamara, that I have not said because up and until this forthcoming remark, I have not been talking about where you are and what is going on with you. My next point is a jump from what all the rest of this discussion about how it is that I can say that "I do not want wealth." ... so now the shift to what I see going on with you. Please forgive my unsolicited feedback.

Satan can and does produce fake fruit and fake gifts of the Spirit. But there is one thing that the devil will not do. Never ever ... he just won't be a part of it ... and that is this: no evil spirit will ever worship / exalt / and promote the Lord Jesus Christ. No devil will ever do it. Mark my words: It just won't happen.

As an example, His fake fruits are seen in Buddhists with their "peace and tranquility." Fake gifts are everywhere too, as I hear that you cannot find a witch doctor in Africa that doesn't "speak in tongues." Fruits and gifts are a cakewalk for the enemy to counterfeit. But saying "Jesus is the Lord" is an impossibility for him.

So what do I hear from you .... "You used to cling only to Christ" ... and you can't seem to accept that I want Him and that solitary desire for Him has maked me indifferent to the vain quest for material wealth. You make it out as if to embrace the Father or the Holy Spirit is something different than embracing the Lord Jesus which (depending on what you mean by that) may border on a blasphemous attack on the Lord Jesus Christ's divinity. Not only do you distinguish between the Lord Jesus and the Father and Spirit ... but also in previous messages you distinguished between the Kingdom of God and Jesus as if one could exist in the absence of the other ... even implying that the Kingdom has to be set up by us apart from the Lord so that He appraises our lonely progress and then returns only once He approves of what He sees. There is a common thread in all of this ... .and that thread is that it diminishes the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'll speak plainly. What I hear from you is the same thing that I see at the mymentalwealth.com website, and that is a pervasive attempt to marginalize the Lord Jesus as dispensable from the Kingdom, as not one with the Father, as not one and the same as the Spirit. I don't see any lifting Him up. I see bringing Him down through subtle marginalization and overt fracturing.

Universally speaking ...
I see the enemy's works when I see the Lord demoted.
I see satan's schemes of distraction when I see anything promoted that excludes Him.

Specifically speaking ...
I don't know if your hearing from God or not ... or if your speaking in tongues is fake with any certainty. How could anyone know that stuff for sure? ... but I do know this, something doesn't seem to wash with my observations above. And I have a hunch that something could be horribly amiss.

"The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" - scriptures of Truth authored by God.
...?Contrast with?...
"He siad to me "There are three of us" - Tamara

"I (Jesus) will build my Kingdom. ... My Kingdom is not of this earth ..." - scriptures of Truth authored by God.
...?Contrast with?...
"He will not return until the Church is teaching and operating in the Kingdom on this earth." - Tamara

Sometimes things can seem to contradict but they do not contradict. Maybe there is a better perspective at looking at these two statements ... I don't know. I don't claim to know it all ... but even as I see with dim eyes, I can't help but frame an outline of what seems to be going on here.

Why can't you live with the fact that I am not seeking new methods unto material wealth in this corporeal realm? Is that so grotesque? Is that incomprehensible? If so, why?

Why, when I explain how I want only to focus upon better methods unto experiencing nearness with the Lord do you seek to drive home the notion that I must be doing something wrong ... or "don't have all of the Giver" ... or should split time clinging unto Jesus with two other fellows that offer power and possessions, as if to seek the Lord and His righteousness is to miss out on two-thirds of what really matters?

This indeed is looking more and more like a grave concern. Not because you want wealth and I don't ... my concern is not that. Like I keep saying ... it is fine when the heart reveals its choice ... I wouldn't want it any other way ... and God honors every choice. Rather my concern is grave because by all appearances the approach that I see from you adds up to a systematic attack on Jesus ... to diminish, demote and fracture Who He is.

Hopefully, my hunches (and all I'm saying is that it is a hunch) is wrong ... but wrong or not ... in the very least I am far less interested in mymentalwealth.com then I was when we started talking ... and I can hardly believe that was even possible.

Ripening,
Trent