Post details: Do we need modern day prophets?

10/29/08

Permalink 02:28:52 am, Categories: By Trent, GraceHead counseling, 1288 words   English (US)

Do we need modern day prophets?

I got this question as a response to another blog:

Do we need modern day prophets?

Mormonism teaches that it is important that they receive continuing revelations from God. In support of this they quote Amos 3:7 that they say proves we need a living prophet today. It says that God will not do anything except through His prophets. Actually, that is true if we remember that this comes from the Old Testament, before the time of Christ. Therefore, we have to go to the New Testament to see what the New Covenant has to say. Hebrews 1:1-2 says that God used to speak through His prophets, but today he speaks through His Son, Jesus Christ. Luke 16:16 says that prophets were until John the Baptist because after him came the Son, Jesus Christ. The result is that we no longer need prophets because we now have Christ. Mormons might say that the New Testament speaks of prophets. That's true, except we have to look at the difference between Hebrew and Greek. The word prophet in Hebrew means one who brings us God's word. In Greek it means one who preaches God's word. That's a big difference.

Len gave a beautiful reply to the question in the message thread HERE. Please click the link.

I just wanted to add a couple of things that build upon what was already said.

Provided that anyone that we might esteem as someone with discernment recognize a prophet, or perhaps everyone we esteem is of the same persuasion, never allow yourself to be swept up in the mob to go along with the crowd. Do not agree with the validation of the prophet simply because it is popular. Chances are that the crowd (in general) has made a poor judgment, and those that we might greatly esteem should never be able to trump our own inner convictions and witness of the Spirit. Likewise, and probably just as important, if those we greatly esteem dismiss someone as a false-prophet, or perhaps everyone we look up to has done likewise, never allow these others to make your decision for you. To go against the grain is never easy, though few understand that for few have done it. Try it and watch how every possible manipulation is mustered to anyone that steps out of line. It is well established by those that study group psychology that a mob will act in concert with a primary devotion to emotion and almost entirely blind to sound reason.

This is why Mormons are blind and deaf and go along with what they're told, and why the general public (who may disagree with the Mormons) tend to do the same without giving sound reasons.

The fact remains that the Mormon prophets are false and provably so. In fact, the evidence is easy to acquire and present, but few do it because those that are for the Mormon prophets and those that are against the Mormon prophets are generally both acting in mob-mentality and nothing really gets discussed, at least nothing substantial that would bear on the impossibility that the Mormon prophets were sent by God

You, my friends, are the salt of the earth ... You have impact, and make a difference in ways that influence the world around you to "taste better" and to "preserve decay." That is what salt does. It is NICE when salt does that ... but salt in a shaker does nothing until it leaves the group and goes out into the world.

"Well that just sounds like you are trying to divide and conquer," you might be thinking, "why would you try to get me to abandon this group that has given me all my thoughts and feelings about everything and leave to develop my own?"

Well, listen ... I am not trying to split you from your beloved and those with which you fellowship because you are like-minded and enjoy enhancing your viewpoint by discussing with them ... I am simply encouraging you that if you develop these things within you on a personal / spiritual level, you will be a better contributor to the world around you and that includes your own sweet fellowships, but also your family, and even strangers. Don't be satisfied drinking from someone-else's bucket when you can drink of the Lord and become a spring of living water. It is time for many of us to quit drawing from the establishment like babies on the breast, and develop and appetite for the deep things of God, thinking deeply and pondering things until by prayer and personal study we understand something that seemed so far away.

We never come to personal revelation except with joy and wonder. We never see a frown on the face of those that sought and sought and were granted understanding.

Lets not become salt that grows stale. For such isn't even fit to spread on manure.

On another note, this questioner should be congratulated, even if you don't agree with them. In my world, I seldom see anyone bring a thought about things on the level that this person put into the question. There are references to Amos, showing that they understand a bit about the mindset of one of their doctrinal opponents and why they think that way. That is an important way to make an impact. And if I were a Mormon, or based my decisions on that Amos verse, it would have made an impact on me. Bravo!

Also, note the use of ancient words and meanings by the questioner to present their point. Often it helps to know what things mean in Greek and Hebrew, especially in tricky verses. I'm really not buying this argument in particular, because of the use of the Greek "προφήτης" (pro-fā'-tās) is so often used in the New Testament to refer to the Old Testament prophets. Nevertheless, it is always nice when we can delve into the word meanings and pass on our knowledge about that which we have discovered.

Lastly, I'm going to take a quick shot at the question at hand and found as the title of this blog: "Do we need modern day prophets?"

Answer: If none are sent, then "no." But, provided that God sends a prophet or two or 144,000, then "yes, we need them." I would let the absence or presence of those gifted with prophesy speak for itself.

In my opinion, it is nice when God gives gifts to the elect for the building up of His body. I, for one, appreciate it and thank the Lord.

Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
~ Jesus

To say that Jesus is through sending prophets, is to make Jesus out to be a liar ... why would anyone do that? Also, to say that Jesus is talking about some other type of prophet other than a prophet like was sent to Israel in the Old Testament is make Jesus out to be a deceiver, because He led into this statement by evoking the prophets gone before that were likewise murdered.

and [you] say, `If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. ... "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets ..."
~Jesus

Jesus does not lie or mislead.

He said He would send prophets as before.

We also know there will be false prophets.

It is up to us to walk with the Lord closely so we can discern between them.

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Comment from: lenbenhear [Member] · http://www.myspace.com/lenbenherehear
Good one, Trent.

A prophet is someone *who hears from* and *speaks forth that which he/she has heard* in order to edify the Body, ... and warn those who are wayward or even OUTSIDE the grace of GOD.

Always: the top priority for a prophet (or true preacher) in a time of moral and spiritual declension,is:
"REPENT ! for GOD requires you to turn to Him and live holy and abide in His Kingdom!"

GOD loves us enough to not only comfort us, ... but to warn us and correct us and draw us nearer to Him.
Permalink 10/29/08 @ 03:44
Comment from: Timothy [Member] · http://www.TrumpetCallofGodOnline.com
Amen.

What did Jesus say about prophets after Himself:

Matthew 23:34 -
Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
~ Jesus

Amen Len... a verse or two regarding your comment:

Ephesians 4:
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-
~ Paul
(NOTE: 1 edify: to instruct and improve especially by good example; benefit morally or spiritually
2 exhortation: earnesty spoken words of urgent advice or warning)

Spiritual Gifts:

1 Cor 12:
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills...

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church(Body of believers): first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

So do we need prophets? Well it looks like Jesus' answer is yes, and Paul's answer is also yes.

And today's prophets speak according to what Jesus speaks to them, as all things are done through Him, even as He spoke to and through Paul...so it is today.

THE LORD DOES NOT CHANGE! (Heb 13:8 & Mal 3:6)

So are there true prophets as well as false? Yes. The Bible tells us how to discern between the two. ie "you shall know them by their fruit" - just 1 example.

And these true prophets speak by Jesus, which continually fulfills Hebrews 1:1-2.

Remember, God does not change...so if He spoke by the prophets in time past then He will continue to do so, but now according to Jesus in them.

Hebrews 1:1-2 does not say God will no longer do it, but rather He has now ALSO spoken to us by His Son...what a blessing! Again, the second blessing does not negate the first nor does it cut off the first, unless Jesus said 'there are no more prophets after Me'. Yet instead Jesus said: "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets..." Shall we now make Him a liar and Paul also? God forbid.

It is only men and the churches fear of true prophets(hence fear of correction), which is also arrogance and pride, that leads them to put God in a box, which is nicely sealed and taped shut by their own hands.

The questioner should be very careful to not add to or take away from the Word of God unless the Lord Himself has spoken to them to do so. ONLY THE LORD CAN ADD TO OR TAKE AWAY FROM HIS OWN WORD.[*obviously the Lord 'adds to' the Bible...hence every new book of the Bible after Genesis, all the way to Revelation. He also 'takes away'- ie Jesus did away(fulfilled) with the sacrificing of animals and ordinances]

Pr 30:6 -
Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

ie:
questioner's version: "Hebrews 1:1-2 says that God used to speak through His prophets, but today he speaks through His Son, Jesus Christ."

The New King James Version
Hebrews 1:
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;


I do not see this phrase in the Bible, "used to speak".

EVERYONE please discern for yourselves and pray. This(below) will help you. Study it carefully. Its from the Bible(word for word KJV).

Click here for --> Discernment of True and False Prophets/Teachers/Preachers
Permalink 10/29/08 @ 10:59
Comment from: Trent [Member] · http://www.GraceHead.com
Right.

Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
~ Jesus

To say that Jesus is through sending prophets, is to make Jesus out to be a liar ... why would anyone do that? Also, to say that Jesus is talking about some other type of prophet other than a prophet like was sent to Israel in the Old Testament is make Jesus out to be a deceiver, because He led into this statement by invoking the prophets gone before that were likewise murdered.

and [you] say, `If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. ... "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets ..."
~Jesus

ripening,
Trent
Permalink 10/29/08 @ 11:49
Comment from: Pam [Visitor] · http://meredevotion.com
Trent,

In the OT, the prophets were the only ones who heard from God and they were God's spokesman to the people. In Christ, we all speak to God directly and hear from Him through Jesus. I think that is what people mean. Anyway, that's the way I see it. Do you not consider pastors and preachers to be prophets? If not then where have the prophets been since Christ ascended?

Pam
Permalink 10/29/08 @ 23:15
Comment from: Trent [Member] · http://www.GraceHead.com
Hi Pam,

"""In the OT, the prophets were the only ones who heard from God and they were God's spokesman to the people."""

Maybe the only ones that heard directly / audibly. Is that what you meant?

"""In Christ, we all speak to God directly and hear from Him through Jesus."""

Is that like I was talking about when I said: "inner convictions and witness of the Spirit" and "personal revelation" and "granted understanding" and "walk with the Lord closely so we can discern"???

"""I think that is what people mean. Anyway, that's the way I see it."""

It sounded like you were saying that having a two-way conversation with God (ie. prayer-life) is what you think people mean when they say "prophet."

I must have misunderstood.

"""Do you not consider pastors and preachers to be prophets?"""

No. Do you? Preaching and pastorate are skills not spiritual gifts ... typically coming by seminary training.
Can those gifted by prophesy also pastor and preach? Yes. Are all pastors and preachers gifted by prophesy? Undoubtedly no.

"""If not then where have the prophets been since Christ ascended?"""

I don't know ... I'm only 34 years old.
I'll take a wild guess and say ... India.
:-)

Ripening,
Trent
Permalink 10/29/08 @ 23:56
Comment from: Pam [Visitor] · http://meredevotion.com
Trent,

I answered this in more detail privately but for the sake of the conversation, I'll answer briefly here also.

I believe from scripture, that the Holy Spirit functions somewhat differently during different dispensations, or ages. In the OT, the Holy Spirit 'came upon' whoever God desired to use for His purpose and to communicate to His people. This is the way He used the prophets, at that time. His Holy Spirit would come upon them and God would communicate through them. The written Word still communicates with us today.

The church experiences another operation of the Holy Spirit and that is the indwelling of the Spirit that is constant. We are not dependent upon a prophet to hear from God. We can speak to Him directly and hear from Him personally. Prophets today are a part of the church and also permenently indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They tell-forth the Word of God as well as, foretell future events when they speak, preach, and teach according to the Holy Spirit. All that they do speak according to that Spirit agrees with scripture. Any prophecy will also agree with scripture and is often a real-time application of scriptural prophecy written long ago. All that will be the full revelation of Jesus Christ has already been written and there is nothing to be added to it but some are blessed with insight into those prophetic scriptures through spiritual gifting. Even though most Christians have ceased from calling anyone a prophet, they still are among us and some do serve as pastors, preachers, or evanglists. Some are lay people. I also believe that one believer may be gifted in many different ways over a lifetime, according to God's purpose. Spiritual gifts don't belong to us they are for the Father's purpose and not our own. They are for His glory and not our own.

The scripture in Hebrews 1 in which Paul writes that God in times past spoke to use in various ways through the prophets but now speaks to us through His Son, I believe speaks to these different operations of the Spirit as it is clear from other NT scripture that prophets still exist and are used by God. Since Christ, they no longer function as the only way in which God's people are able to know God's Will. They are for the edification of believers but all who are in Christ are indwelt by the same Spirit as those prophets and enabled to enjoy two-way communication with God on their own.

I also believe that in the age to come, the Holy Spirit's function will be both inward and outward but that is another discussion.:0)

I hope I made sense this time.

Pam
Permalink 10/30/08 @ 17:58
Comment from: lenbenhear [Member] · http://www.myspace.com/lenbenherehear
To all: OK. Most everyone agrees that the gifts and the offices in the Body of Christ have NOT disappeared.

Now, for the sake of clarity: Timothy is the only one here who regularly and boldly declares that he hears regularly from GOD and has the office and calling of a prophet.

Well? Is this true? each must examine his words of "thus saith the Lord" and decide for themselves.

Is there PROOF that Timothy is speaking *contrary to* The Gospel and the Word of GOD. ?

None.

Is he one of GOD's prophets?

Prove to me that he is not.
Permalink 11/02/08 @ 09:18
Comment from: Pam [Visitor] · http://meredevotion.com
Len,

I don't think it is so much a matter of proof one way or the other but revelation by the Holy Spirit. Why should we try to push one another ahead of Him one way or the other?

Pam
Permalink 11/02/08 @ 18:48

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