Post details: All the [blank] all the time...


Permalink 11:36:27 am, Categories: GraceHead teaching, By Trent, 578 words   English (US)

All the [blank] all the time...

When God says (such as Revelation 14:12 and 12:17) that God's children and saints are those "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus," does it mean that in order to qualify as a saint one must keep all the commandments all the time? Is that fair to say, would that insertion of "all" be a composition fallacy?

Well, lets look at some other examples.

Real Men Use Shaving Brushes.jpg
The caption reads: "Real men use shaving brushes."

Does that mean "Real men always use all shaving brushes all the time?" That real men just never sleep, nor eat, nor goto the bathroom ... when instead all they ever do is sit around using their shaving brushes? Do you think anyone should come to the conclusion that the advertizment means all the time? Clearly, we are not dealing with stable thought nor clear comprehension if we need to persuade anybody of the obvious limitations in the statement, "Real men use shaving brushes."

Instead of "all the time" ... what about interpreting within the context of a life of a "real man" ... saying instead that "the hallmark of a real man's life includes often the enrichment of their lives by the use of shaving brushes." I'm no comprehension guru, but a statement like that would seem to fit the picture and the message that I believe is expressed.

Or take this example.

Real women drive trucks

Please tell me that you are not confused by this image into believing that in order to be a real woman, you must at all times drive all trucks ... as if you could drive more than one truck at a time. "Ever, and I mean EVER stop driving you truck to fill up the tank or eat or goto the bathroom, then ... well, you just aren't a real woman." Nobody really thinks that is what is meant, right?

So, I have lost my way whenever I come to the conclusion that when God says, "the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" that there could be ANY possibility that the meaning of that phrase is "keep all the commandments of God all the time."

I interpret it to mean something similar to my extrapolation of the shaving advertisement ... something like: "the hallmarks of a true saint's life and a genuine child of God includes often the enrichment of their lives by the obedience to God's commands and the faithful testimony of Jesus."

I'm not real happy with that, because I think that God says it fine just the way it is written in Revelation ... and I think that the truck image and the shaving image above say their messages fine, too. I would not want them to trade slogans with the clumsy way that I reinterpreted them. Rather, I am merely attempting to avoid a fallacy in reading into such phrases the word "all" when that clearly isn't what they mean at "all."

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Help me understand if you don't mind leaving a comment that you get-it ... that you aren't confused by Revelation 12:17 or 14:12. I just want to make sure that I am not the only one that sees the composition of these passages.

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Comment from: pam [Visitor]
I think we have all been so busy marching around and clashing the cymbols of our own knowledge that none of us can hear the truth. That includes Pam, Timothy, and Trent. Indeed, we have made so much racket that I think Jesus may have left the room.

I know I am a sinner all of the time and that I need Jesus all of the time. The rest of what I know really doesn't matter very much.

Permalink 04/01/08 @ 13:11
Comment from: Judah [Visitor] ·
Since the passage says, "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus", maybe we should ask a related question, does it mean that in order to qualify as a saint one must hold to the testimony of Jesus all the time?

I think that means those that have held on to God to the very end. Sure, you may have stumbled. Maybe you were ashamed of your faith at one time. The ones that hold onto Yeshua and to his commandments are the ones that t'shuva -- turn all the way back to him -- after stumbling.

(That's not a word of the Lord, just my personal interpretation.)

Pam, regarding clashing our cymbals of knowledge, I hope that's not true, I hope that hasn't been done. We should be speaking his word in love, not in a "know-it-all" kind of way, if that's what you're saying. If there is a problem in the body of Messiah, even here at Gracehead, we ought to speak up. Can you explain your concern more?
Permalink 04/01/08 @ 15:42
Comment from: pam [Visitor]

No, not now, I can't except on my part. It is easy to get caught up in pursuing the truth to the point of hurting others and I think it is something most Christians do at one time or another. I don't think ministry should be a blood letting but often, it seems that it is. We make the truth untrue by the way we treat one another.
Permalink 04/01/08 @ 16:16
Comment from: terry fuller [Visitor]
I believe, for what it's worth, that the commandments, spoken of in Revelations, are "the whole law" refered to in James 2:10, which indicates that to fail at any point in keeping the commandments is to be guilty of not keeping any of it.
That is why our only plea is Jesus who fulfilled the law for us. His life, in us, is what God sees. Men see the result: when we yeild to His life and power in us.
Permalink 04/01/08 @ 19:52
Comment from: Timothy [Member] ·
Amen Trent...

Clearly the saints are known by that which they uphold and diligently seek to obey.

Are they then perfect? By NO means... there is One perfect - Jesus Christ, Yeshua the Messiah.

Therefore the saints take joy in keeping the commandments because of their gratitude, while always and in all ways seeking to do what is right and pleasing in the eyes of the Lord God Most High. For they take much joy in the Moral Law, as it is now established in them by faith(Romans 3:31) and built upon the Testimony of Jesus Christ, which they have and hold to so tightly, having received of Grace first; and then were shown by their works that they had truly received... showing in there ways that which the had received inwardly, even a reflection of Christ in them - an example.

So indeed Grace and the Testimony is never left alone...

*God's children and saints are those "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus"


Related Word from God:

"Also, hang My commandments in your dwelling place, so all who enter may see them. Also, put them outside, so when one, being stranger or friend, may come and ask you why you have done this, you may answer, "For I love the Lord, my God, with all my heart, and obey Him". Then they will ask you, 'Have you always obeyed Him and His Law?' You will answer, "To my shame I have not, but I am redeemed through God's Son, Jesus, and now find much joy in obeying them, as will you also if you, too, take them to heart."" ~ God
Permalink 04/02/08 @ 15:18
Comment from: terry fuller [Visitor]
Please consider, when reading about the outward signs of which one should take note when identifying those who belong to God, that those outward signs are for the benefit of men. "... man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh upon the heart." I Samuel 16:7.
Permalink 04/02/08 @ 17:55
Comment from: Timothy [Member] ·
Amen Terry...

Re 2:23 -
...Then all the Messianic communities('churches') will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and that I will give to each of you what your deeds deserve.

This is why I said 'an example' and to prove their faith...

Ac 26:20 -
...I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

For indeed we are to be and example to all others, but only by that which is in us - Jesus Christ, who lives in us and through us; and we in Him, even as parts of His own body with He as the Head.

Tit 2:7 -
In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness

1Ti 4:12 -
Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

Matthew 5:15
Likewise, when people light a lamp, they don't cover it with a bowl but put it on a lampstand, so that it shines for everyone in the house.

Permalink 04/02/08 @ 22:16

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