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Amen.

YOU WORK OUT your salvation by learning to rely on God to work in you; to conform your will and your actions to his good purpose.

Here's food for thought...
The same Greek word for "work out" is used in this verse too.
Roman's 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
In His Love,
Robin

"FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKETH IN YOU, - BOTH TO WILL AND TO *DO* HIS GOOD PLEASURE."

GRACE. LOVE. - the fulfilling of The Law.

Believers bear the fruit of being in the vine. Does a branch "work out" the fruit? Or does it simply gracefully allow the life giving power from abiding in the vine and the natural results of the creator to produce good fruit because it is its nature to do so.

The vine has roots in the soil that draw up the rain and nutrients needed by the branch. It has leaves that absorb CO2 and sunlight to produce the sugars that are stored in the fruit of its on and other branches.

If a branch decided to "work out" its fruit on its own, the fruit would not be of the vine. In fact if it does not abide in the vine, no fruit or life will result. If cut off, it must be grafted back to a suitable vine to remain alive.

It is the work of the believer to believe and constantly abide and depend on the nature of the vine (Christ) to produce HIS fruit (the fruit of the spirit). We can just be surprised when anything good appears on the stems which grow while we abide and know that without the vine and the devine hand of the creator, nothing good could result.

If we could produce good on our own, then what was the purpose of Christ, the Spirit and the perfect sacrifice? Law and effort would have been all we needed. But no one has ever been saved by law or effort ... only by believing. Even Abraham was saved not by works or law but by his faith in God's future provision. That has always been the true source of salvation and it will always be.

By the way, I note that often comment is locked out or cut off on most of Timothy's posts at this site. Some of them are quite controversial and deserve comment. Could it be that they will not stand the test of open discussion?

Forgot the references for my comments above. See Galations 3 and Hebrews 11 for example.

One is not Graceful or Gracefilled when self effort, works or law are substitued for abiding in faith. He has then separated from and made naught the sufficiency of Christ's death ... without which there is none of God's infilling gracefullness.

The question is not Grace vs works, it is rather without Grace from believing and abiding and depending wholely on Christ's perfect provision, there is no good work but rather our works become become our condemnation since they prove we have forsaken faith in Christ.

You are right, Trent:

WHAT IS GIVEN as A GIFT in the (*regenerated*) human spirit MUST BE WORKED OUT and made manifest [as fruit] in the soul, the body, and the life.

GRACE does NOT nullify the choices to give ourselves to Jesus daily to be sanctified and used by Him. Amen.

Dad,
You asked: """Does a branch "work out" the fruit?"""
"Work out" is the exact phrase used in the scripture quoted in the message to which you are replying. Thus it would seem apparently so, provided we are to agree that the Author of scripture is not prone to mistakes.
I know you would not intentionally imply otherwise, right?

So, as far as I am concerned, it would be more profitable to discuss what meaning is poured into these words (as might be apparent from the context,) rather than cast aspersions upon holy writ, as if the words are false or inapplicable or somehow untrue.

As far as the rest of what you said, I think we all agree. For "human effort is of no use." And we know that it says the we bear (not produce) the fruit of the Spirit. Both of which are common themes at GraceHead and inexhaustible truths, of which I never grow weary. So, thank you for reminding me, I can't hear that stuff enough.

So to take if further based on what you said, I am reminded of this quote:

"'Christ is the Way, and the only name under Heaven by which you shall be saved, not by your works.
Rather, grace is the gift of God given to all those who come to Him in faith, who believe in the name Jesus Christ,
and accept His sacrifice into them as the payment for forgiveness of sin. So then, all those,
who boast of their own works leading them to Heaven, shout in vain, shown in vanity for pride's sake...you are lost.
You have forsaken My covenant in blood through My Son the Christ. " ~ God - Volume 2

and a quote that may actually build a bridge to the topic of the blog to which you replied, and the reference in Philippians 2:12-13 ...

'I am the I AM, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the very Salvation.
It is of grace that I will save you, and this not of yourself, for it is by faith (belief in Christ),
and not of your works, you are saved, lest you should be boastful of your works and not believe,
for even a man without works, yet who still believes, to that man I will credit righteousness.
Then will his works follow him, for he has believed rightly.' ~ God - Volume 1

Do you suppose the last part of that second quote has something to do with Philippians 2:12-13?
I think I see something there.

Ripening for the harvest,
Trent

There is an interesting study of the referenced passage at http://www.preceptaustin.org/philippians_212-18.htm. There it is pointed out that Paul did NOT say "work on" or "work at" or "work for" your salvation.

The same word translated here "work out" is used over twenty times in the NT and has the connotation of carrying through to completion or to (as in the Amplified) cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete.

If God has worked salvation in us, with dependence on his Holy Spirit, we can continue in that salvation and let Him create in us the fruit that only he can bear. It is a similar concept to abiding in the vine and taking on the role of a servant to His church.

More self effort to perfect salvation is not being admonished or suggested by Paul.


Abiding,

Dad

REVELATION 2 - 3:

"TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME
shall I give..."

Salvation is A GIFT.

Sanctification requires EFFORT thru the fire and the trials of life. ... GOD ENABLES, ... we must yield.

HE is The Potter, we are the clay.

~ I hope that helps.

I would like to comment to "Dad's" comment...Thanks for mentioning the closed posts from Timothy.
I added a comment to his post (before he closed them) re the criticism and judgement he spoke against Joel Olsteen. Another Gracehead added a funny comment as well. Timothy then answered back. He claimed Jesus was speaking, and not himself, while adding an equally judgmental “Thus sayeth the Lord” against us. I believe he doesn’t want any comments on his “blog” that challenge his messages he claims are from “Jesus”. I wondered why he would be associated with a site called Gracehead, when he obviously was acting more like a lawhead on steroids! I’ve found that law makes a person sin-conscience. Then exposes his fruit by pointing fingers at everyone’s sin. Grace on the other hand, is Jesus-conscience, which bares fruit from the Spirit of truth “pointing” to Him and who we are in Him. I too am concerned, especially if a baby in the Lord (who doesn’t know the bible) may read his so called messages from “Jesus” and stumble with condemnation or worse, run away thinking this is what Jesus is like. His messages are not blogs, but may be a soap box for a spirit…who is not of the One who called us!

Hi Robin,

I share your concern ... especially when I focus on the critical comments posted. However, my concern is less when I remember that Christ will build his church and even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He is all powerful and able. Once again we can abide in his abundance without fear ... but we need a healthy respect for the devil and his evil when we see it. Criticism is not of the spirit, fear is not of the spirit, but we can rest in Him and his strength.

His gracefulness is sufficient ... his words have power to confront the wickedness of this world. Thanks for your post and encouragement.

Amen indeed!

Mat 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. 31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. 33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Thus says the Lord:
Ezekiel 33

1 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 "Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: 'When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life.

Trent,
Words are important because they carry meaning and ideas. However words can be miss understood or can be accurately translated in more than one way as the concepts move from one language or context to another. It is good to work to understand them. I am not sure where you are going with "work out" but I think I cited a good reference to help understand the intent and meaning of the verse.

I am not sure why you keep quoting other non-biblical works; i.e., "God - Vol 1 and Vol 2." If one wants to know the meaning of the Bible, one should use the Bible and the writings of those that have devoted their life to its study to find further insight and clarification.

I have not studied the reference you quoted and do not intend to do so. However in the few words quoted there I see a lack of understanding on the part of the author in a few ways.

For example, the author wrote "grace is the gift of God." These words are very similar to Ephesians 2:8 --
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God ...." Note however Christ and his sacrifice is the "gift" ... not grace. Grace is rather an attribute of God as in his graciousness or gracefulness. That attribute allowed him to set aside His righteousness and thereby to allow the blood of Christ to cover our sinfulness. Otherwise His righteousness would have demanded either perfection or our death. He is a righteous God and a gracious God.

In Ephesians, our FAITH is also the gift of God since that faith is not of ourselves. Note that FAITH is the gift not grace. Grace is the attribute of God ... just as he is wise, righteous, etc., he is also unchanging, good and graceful.

Later the author of "God" wrote, "It is of grace that I will save you." Again this is a misuse of the concept of grace or just poor English. It is unnecessary and unwise to partially translate, mix up and misuse scripture. One should not try to rewrite Ephesians to make it look like a special power from God is being bestowed.

Note again the similarity to Ephesians 2: 7-9 that reads -- 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Restating similar but slightly changed ideas is a dangerous thing.

I know it is subtle and perhaps obtuse. But words misused can not be tolerated even if they are in a flowery "King James" style and from someone that is believed to be well intentioned.

This is particularly true if the words are written as though they are spoken by God and have the power of truth and scripture. Studying a writing that misuses a central concept of scripture should not be encouraged. Stick with Ephesians and discard the rambling writings that are full of error as we have seen in just these two short passages.

dad,

You wrote: """ I am not sure where you are going with "work out" but I think I cited a good reference to help understand the intent and meaning of the verse."""

I thought it was quite obvious in the verse itself ... for it says "CONTINUE to work out" and right before that it explains what Paul was talking about them continuing.
For example if I say, you have always recorded People's Court on VCR for me ... so Continue to tape it ... then it shouldn't boggle the mind to understand what was meant by "tape it."
It seems from the context that "tape it" means "record on VCR" ... for that is what was being done ... and what was asked to continue.

So, "where I was going" can all be found in the excerpt of the verse in the quote, in the blog. - Philippians 2:12-13 (above)

you said: """Grace is rather an attribute of God as in his graciousness or gracefulness"""

I have found that to be only moderately cooberated, but not by the passage that you quoted - Eph 2:8

The widely accepted traditional definition of the word "grace" - (divine enablement/assistance) seems to fit the context better .. .for in the verse that you brought forth Ephesians 2:8 ... one needs only to look 3 verses previous to discover a context where grace seems to be defined for that passage. Tell me which one fits better.

Ephesians 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by divine attribute(s) you have been saved
or
Ephesians 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by divine assistance you have been saved

So graciousness and gracefulness are indeed attributes of God, however, that doesn't necessarily mean that ever instance of "grace" in the bible, refers to that fact. ... and I have not found that to be the majority case in Paul's writings ... or so it seems to me, and the majority of available biblical scholarship that I could find.

you said: """That attribute allowed him to set aside His righteousness and thereby to allow the blood of Christ to cover our sinfulness. Otherwise His righteousness would have demanded either perfection or our death. He is a righteous God and a gracious God."""

Provided that you believe, as I do, that Christ was the Lamb, slain before the foundation of the world, then in a very real sense, God did not wait for there to be sinfulness or dire due punishment might have evoked His attribute of compassion/gracefulness or otherwise. Rather, by design, the death of Christ was not a reaction to anything in particular, but according to the plan of the ages, purposed even before creation was set in motion, much less anybody was around to sin or merit punishment for transgression. Furthermore, if you believe, as I do, that many walk this world separate from the life of God (Eph 4:18) than it may not be as universally true to say that death would be something demanded at a later point from all the wicked, when also in a very real sense ... death is that in which they already abide - when separated from the life of God. For the Lord has said, "If you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood, then you have no real life in you." (I am quoting for memory, so that may not be exact) ... nevertheless, death is certainly one definition for the absence of life, is it not?

you said: """Note that FAITH is the gift not grace. Grace is the attribute of God ... just as he is wise, righteous, etc., he is also unchanging, good and graceful."""

One need not look far to find the many references to "receiving" grace as a gift. 1Pe 4:10 even equates the word "gift" and "grace" as one reference among many other references using the word "receive" or "received" and "grace."
This could be another reason that definitions of the word grace tend to describe divine assistance/enablement rather than attribute as the primary definition. Or does God make a gift/present of his attributes?

you said: """One should not try to rewrite Ephesians to make it look like a special power from God is being bestowed."""

Like I said, the answer is three verses previous ...

you said: """But words misused can not be tolerated even if they are in a flowery "King James" style and from someone that is believed to be well intentioned."""

Everyone choose what they are willing to tolerate. But, "King James" ... really? You think?
Authoritative, maybe. But "King James style" it is not. Unless every contract or engineers-plan-specifications that I have read are likewise written as an homage to "King James" style language. Let me know when you catch a "ye" or "thine" in there ... ok?

you said: """Studying a writing that misuses a central concept of scripture should not be encouraged."""

no comment ...

you said: """Stick with Ephesians and discard the rambling writings that are full of error as we have seen in just these two short passages."""

I'll take that under advisement.
;-)

Still ripening,
Trent

Trent,

I'm late reading this one and all the comments. I've been thinking on this a lot the last few weeks and I was wondering as to the criteria you use to decide if text is scripture?

I have read a lot of extra-biblical writing that I consider to be of the Spirit but I don't reguard it as equal to the Bible. I have personal standards that cause me to have this point of view and I honestly, don't believe I have the authority to decide if any new writing is on the same par as the Bible. I am interested to hear what you have to say. Do you also reguard the lost gospels as scripture? Even those that were written much later by persons who claim they were written by the aspostles? (I am referring to Gnostic texts)

Thanks,
Pam

I love the Lord