Post details: All means all means all means all ...


Permalink 09:20:46 am, Categories: By Trent, GraceHead grinning, 358 words   English (US)

All means all means all means all ...

(originally posted June 17, 2006)
Contrary to popular belief ...
All pens are made by Bic,
and all have red ink.

All means all, baby!
Before you try to argue against me, first look at my proof by clicking below to read more.


Proof that all pens are Bic
See there?
I was right. All means all, and all pens are made by "Bic", and all of them have red ink. Is that sound logic? Or misleading when presented out of context?

You might have guessed that I am bringing this up to point to the how Universalists will use the "all means all" argument to make an obscure verse by Paul to dismantle Paul's teaching, Jesus' teaching, Peter's teaching, and John's teaching. Here is the verse:

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Just as my statement that "all pens are made with red ink" is right in a specific context (the context of THE PICTURE,) and wrong in almost any other context ... so is Paul's statement absolutely right in the context of 1 Corinthians, but wrong in almost any other context.

So what is the context of 1 Corinthians?

1 Corinthians 1:1-2
Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

What about the context of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians? Well, Paul re-affirms the narrow audience of his statements to be "you, brethren ... received and standing in the gospel" (verse 1), and "saved and holding fast the word" (verse 2), "your faith in vain if the Lord not raised" (verse 14 & 17.)

So, in the context of the picture above ... all pens are Bic, and all have red ink ... and in the context of 1 Corinthians 15 ... all are made alive. You have to apprehend the context!

If somebody says all hot-dogs have mustard, they are probably talking about all the hot-dogs on the table, not all hot-dogs ever made.

You just have to use your head a little.

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Comment from: Timothy [Member] ·
1 Corinthians 15:22 CJB
For just as in connection with Adam all die, so in connection with the Messiah all will be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in [Adam] all die, so in [Christ] all will be made alive

If I may add how I see it...

For as [in flesh & sin] all die, so in [redemption/grace] all will be made alive.

So, actually ALL who remain in sin unrepented will die, even every one. And All penitent in Christ, even every one of these, accepted in the Beloved, will be made alive and live... Hallelujah!

Here is another related example that seems contradictory out of the context:

Heb 9:27 -
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Thes. 4:17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

If we read the whole NT, and embrace the Spirit which reminds us and gives us understanding of all Jesus has taught us, all contradictions fade away.
So then, the statement "it is appointed unto men once to die" is true in both verses if you understand that the man, who is alive and remains who is caught up to Jesus, must have already died once to himself, putting away the *"old man" (*or the death of the "old man") and has **put on the new man in Christ.


*Col. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have *put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have **put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Therefore, all men die once whether it be first in spirit(the "old man"), then the flesh unto life eternal at the first resurrection - life to death to death to life. Or from life to death (spiritually - "old man") to life eternal at the Rapture.

Let us all die to sin and who we were and put on Christ! Amen?
Permalink 10/23/07 @ 10:21
Comment from: dorsey [Visitor] ·
Not sure I agree, Trent. Your "all" statement is still incorrect, even in the context of the picture. The only correct way to say it is, "All these pens..." Adding the picture doesn't change the fact that "all" still includes all the pens not in the picture.

BTW, I don't think you're necessarily wrong about universalism. I just don't think the pen analogy (as stated) makes the case.

Permalink 10/23/07 @ 11:07
Comment from: Trent [Member] ·

Hi there!
You have a point, bro. To be fair, the "all pens" was a leap, because there was an "implied" reference for the word all, but no context from which to understand the reference until the picture was shown.

My point is that the pronoun "all" can have an "understood antecedent " other than the universal.

"All" can be specific, or general depending on the context.

It has been argued that the word "all" can refer to "all things everywhere at all times", so if you use that as your antecedent, in Paul's 1 Corinthians 15:22, then you must do so while ignoring the obvious antecedent to that pronoun throughout that letter, and especially the nearby sentences, or the Bible as a whole, which clearly states in multiple places that not all peoples are saved.

Ephesians 4:18
They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

I think you get the point. And yes "all these pens" would have been more explicit.

Permalink 10/23/07 @ 11:51
Comment from: Pam [Member]
I guess you guys know that I see it differently but I don't think I've been very sucessful in being understood.

All have been locked away under the Law. All sin and all are under the curse of the Law. They are spiritually dead. All are born in the flesh according to the first Adam. All people born since Adam are under this curse.

1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive.

The context of 'all' in the above verse is the most inclusive of the human family. There is no specification as to distinquish a group of persons from another. To make death through Adam inclusive of all human beings and life in Christ specific to only a few is to give more power to sin and death than to Christ.

1 Cor. 15:23a But each in his own turn:

This denotes an order of events, a process of Life as it is injected into a dying world. The order of those events are laid out clearly in the passages that follow.

1 Cor. 15 23-26 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits:(Christ's resurrection)then, when He comes, those who belong to him.(the gathering in the clouds of the saints to Jesus)Then the end will come, when He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. For He must reign untill He has put all his enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.(When Jesus died on the cross, He conquered sin and death but they have not yet been fully vanquished. Jesus death brought Salvation but it is His Life that sanctifies and fully redeems us making us free of sin and death. This work by the Life of Christ in we who in this age believe will be the same work that Christ Jesus will accomplish during His Kingdom Rule with a rod of iron. Sin and death will be fully vanquished as death is thrown into the lake of fire and death literally dies.)

1 Cor.15:27-31 For He has put everything under His feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under Him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself, Who put everything under Christ. When He has done this then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him Who put everything under Him." (This is the result of the finished work of Jesus Christ upon the earth. At the ende of Christ's Kingdom rule, Jesus will return God's Creation to Him with NOTHING lost to Sin and Death. This is full victory and all to the glory of God.)

1 Cor.29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?(This verse has been made obscur by the limited understanding of theologians and Christians who view Salvation as only pertaining to their own destiny. If we come to a Biblical understanding of the purpose of our Salvation, it is no longer obscure. We who are in Christ have been baptized by the Holy Spirit. This is on behalf of the dead, on behalf of ALL who are locked away under sin and death. In this age, we are to proclaim Christ as Jesus commanded that we do as the work of calling out His church yet continues. Yet not all the dead on whose behalf we have been baptized are given to be a part of this called out company that receive Salvation in Christ. Salvation in Christ during the age of Grace is limited to the church (red bick pens) but in the future age to come, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron and it will be a new work of the Holy Spirit but with the same intended purpose, returning the Creation fully freed from sin and death to God the Father. It is in this age that all will be made alive in Christ (all pens of all colors that have ever been a pen).

1 Cor.30-31 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? I DIE EVERY DAY-I mean that brothers---just as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. (We who are in Christ were once dead in Adam as all human beings are born dead in Adam. Now we are alive in Christ and the Consuming Fire that is our God burns within us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We die everyday as that Fire burns away that within us that is according to our flesh and is sin and death. We are born dead spiritually and we die to the flesh as we are spiritually reborn and come alive to God. We die twice and the second death is indeed, the death of death as we are alive in Christ Jesus and by the Power of His ressureciton we are raised to Life as physical death has no hold over us for our flesh is nailed to the cross with Christ. Those who are outside of Christ are already dead and they will upon the final resurrection also pass through the Fire that is the Consuming Fire of God as they are judged according to their works according to the Law. This is the second death that they must suffer. Yet, we have been baptized on their behalf and just as we are enabled by God to endure the burning of that Consuming Fire within us, so too, I believe they also will endure that Final Burning as "Every knee will bend and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord" No one who confesses Jesus as Lord can die for to do so is to lift the curse of Adam and receive Life. He will pass through the fire with them just as He is with us as we indure that inward burning away of all that is not of God. The vessels of wrath will suffer complete personal destruction but when death dies in the Lake of Fire, there can be nothing left but Life. "God desires that none should perish but that all men be brought to repentance." I know what God is capable of and I am certain that His dsire will be accomplished, fully.

1 Cor. 15:32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

If my Salvation is for me only then all has been accoplished. I can't die so I might as well do as I please. Isn't this the view of many Christians today? Is it really no wonder? My hope of glory is not Christ in my but Christ in you and the glory I hope for is none of my own but the full glory of God as His desires for man are completely and fully realized.

This also correlates with the writings of Paul in Romans 8-15 as he brings to light the vessels of honor and the vessels of wrath and God's full purpose for them. I would be glad to go through those chapters also.

I am not doing this to dispute and argue but only to be understood clearly. I don't expect every one to see as I see. God showed all of this to me for His reasons and not my own. I have been wrong in making this a bone of contention but it is not wrong for me to share what God has revealed to me as to the full scope of His purpose that is the full Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Permalink 10/23/07 @ 12:23
Comment from: Pam [Member]

There are many Universalists today who are Unitarian, they seek to reconcile religions or man to man and not to reconcile man to God. Biblical Universalists are few and far between. It is a view that can only come as the Holy Spirit directs in the study of scipture as God reveals His plan in Christ through them. It is His Work in reconciling all that is in His Word that to the natural human mind is contradictory. This is more about how God has filled me and expanded my heart to include all others in God's plan and to know that my God is the Living God of all living. God loves His children and has pulled out all the stops in His pursuit of them so that each and every one will turn to Him for Life. His desire has become my desire also and His desire is my purpose.

Permalink 10/23/07 @ 12:36
Comment from: Ha Kohen [Visitor] ·
Normally I don't like to publicize my own stuff on other sites but in this case I think it might be usefull for both sides to see a clear picture of the others view.

April 6th, 2007 (Universalism)
Permalink 10/23/07 @ 14:34
Comment from: j [Member] ·
I've never been able to justify universalism with scripture (and believe me, I've tried!). Still, I hope I'm missing something and the universalists are right. I really do!
Permalink 10/23/07 @ 22:40
Comment from: Pam [Member]

It wasn't something I strained for, it was just suddenly revealed to me. I don't believe really in universal salvation though. I believe in universal reconciliation that ends in universal restoration with the church, those who experience Salvation in Jesus during the age of Grace as a pivitol part of that process.

I have been trained to view the Bible according to dispensation since I first began to study after becoming a Christian. That is a much different way of viewing scriptures than that of Protestant churches who tend to see Salvation as the end all.

Permalink 10/24/07 @ 00:18

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