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Yes. Legalism is toxic faith and toxic religiosity.

It is the Pharisee-ism so often seen in fundie-ism, ... and especially the desire to "promote self," "point the finger" and "judge" with the unrighteous judgement of judgementalism that says (in one manner or another) "just look how much better I am and smarter I am than *you.*" (!)

May the good grace of the Lord Jesus Christ keep us and deliver us from all such!

We are nothing without Christ and His enabling grace; as worthless and rotten as the worst of sinners.

THANKS BE UNTO GOD for His unspeakable gift
thru our Lord Jesus Christ.

Morning Trent,

I agree that we can't make ourselves holy and Jesus the Son of Man could not be made holy apart from the Son of God. We can't become holy by obeying laws and ordinances or by obeying the rules and ordinances others require of us. Yet, are you made holy by disobeying God directly? I would think not. It is by the process of the Holy Spirit bringing us into direct submission to the Father that we are made holy.

The balance I think is in knowing Jesus as both the Son of God and the Son of Man. In Jesus the Spirit ruled the weaker flesh just as He is to rule over our weak flesh. If Jesus had perfectly strong flesh the world would wonder after Him but the world did not and does not desire Jesus the Son of Man for the world does not desire suffering.

I still must go back to the scriptures that I previously posted and though you are dear to me, from them, dicerned by the Spirit, I apply them to my life and my understanding of Jesus.

Pam

Pam,

"""Yet, are you made holy by disobeying God directly? I would think not."""
Sounds like a load to me. :-)

If what I do defines what I am, then obeying would make me holy, and disobeying would make me unholy.
However, that is not what the Bible reveals. Behavior reveals what we have been made ... not the other way around.
We "put on Christ" as believers as a means to reveal our condition, not change our condition. ... And anyone that is made Holy by the blood of Jesus that acts contrary to that (through disobedience) has concealed what they are, and have caused themselves vexation of spirit ... and it would go well for them to behave as they have become.

NOTHING that I do will ever contribute or interrupt what God has made me by His own actions (superceeding any actions of my own).

I am holy ... and my behavior does not effect it (Eph. 1:4, Col. 1:22, Col. 3:12)

"""It is by the process of the Holy Spirit bringing us into direct submission to the Father that we are made holy."""

Titus3:5Read This Chapter
he delivered us. It was not on the ground of any righteous deeds we had done, but on the ground of his own mercy. He did it by means of the mikveh of rebirth and the renewal brought about by the Ruach HaKodesh,

"""The balance I think is in knowing Jesus as both the Son of God and the Son of Man. In Jesus the Spirit ruled the weaker flesh just as He is to rule over our weak flesh. If Jesus had perfectly strong flesh the world would wonder after Him but the world did not and does not desire Jesus the Son of Man for the world does not desire suffering."""

There are plenty of ways to suffer besides catching a cold ... betrayal, torment, agony, sorrow, abuse, injustice, etc.

Ripening,
Trent

Jason,
You stated:"""This reveals one aspect of Jesus - the godly side - what hope does that honestly leave us to 'follow his teachings' """

No hope in attaining, grasping, achieving, nor effort. At least this side of delusion.

Except one hope - The hope that Jesus, Himself will fulfill in our body by the Spirit all the faint, subtle and overt aspects of the Holy commands in these days, in no lesser way than He did so in His own body 2000 years ago.

A fruit of the Spirit cannot be the result of our sweat and effort.
Besides, whoever said that the teachings of Jesus were instructing us of what we CAN do, on our own? Those very same teachings instructs every man exactly what they cannot do on their own.
The Christian life is not hard, it is impossible, and so we look to Him to make possible in us, what is impossible otherwise, and by the Spirit it becomes a piece of cake ... effortless, but perfect, as He invades our frail tabernacles and shines forth His own glory through humble vessels.

You stated:"""us being not that same condition (as we are told consistently to do through-out the gospels - namely Matthew)"""

We are told to follow Him. We agree about that. WHY we are told that is where we disagree. I think that we are told that so that we learn that we cannot do, as we are commanded ... and that He never said that we could do as we are commanded. In fact, we are told over and over that we can do nothing, and that even the dependence demonstrated by Christ demanded that even He did nothing.
See this article:
http://gracehead.com/index.php/2007/02/08/over_humanization
We have had this conversation before in that article.
I assume that you think otherwise ... that Christ taught us what we COULD do on our own, rather than what He was going to fulfill in us by His Spirit.
My question, is if we could do that stuff, then why didn't the Father just send us to do it, instead of Jesus?

Find one place where it says that we can do what we are commanded to do. Yet in a matter of a minute or two, a blind person could stumble upon numerous references that say that we cannot do anything apart from Him ... and that He is the only one to live the Christian life, and a Christian that walks as the Lord walks, never claims that they can do any of it ... for even the Lord gave 100% credit to Another.

You stated:"""Since in the end, we do have Jesus' teachings in front of us as a guide."""

"The command was given that sin might abound." - Paul.

You stated:""" I would rather someone tried and was failing then not tried at all (concerning adopting Jesus' teachings)."""

Wood, Hay, Stubble ... this is what human efforts produce.
Precious stones ... this is what is impossible for humans to produce no matter how hard they might try.
One is achieved. The other is discovered.
All works will be judged accordingly.

You stated:"""I also disagree with this - since we have the power of choice (also given by God). He may have made me - but He does not control my actions either - and he has given us this power to glorify Him. I do think something you do can effect your view of God."""

Go ahead and boast, if you caused yourself to choose Him, where others have not chosen the Lord Jesus.
I cannot boast in that, for even though that was my inclination ... I did not create that inclination within me, that is lacking in others. The Creator, for the delight of the Son, did create some with inclinations to hug the Lord in love, and others with the inclinations to run from Him and rebel. And my "coming to faith" only revealed what was hidden in my heart.
For it is written: Joh 17:9 - Show Context "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given to me, because they are yours.

The Good Shepherd will not loose a single sheep, but He will not save a single goat ... and no sheep will boast that they, themselves, made them a sheep. They were made sheep by Another, and the same made every goat.

You stated: """So my question is this then - where do Jesus teachings fit into this and our following of them (adopting them into our lives)? If they are not for righteousness - then what are they for at all?"""
I covered this above, but I also want to point to these articles:
http://gracehead.com/index.php/2005/10/19/god_s_commands_the_gracehead_approach
and
http://gracehead.com/index.php/2005/10/03/christianity_is_the_world_s_ugliest_reli

Thanks for the great questions. I am sure there were others less brave as you, or not deeming me worthy of their critique. So, I thank God for your ability to speak into this article a from a different perspective.

Ripening,
Trent

I've thought about this some more and my definition of walking according to the Spirit is God changing who we are by what He leads us to do. That isn't the same as obeying a code.

Pam

Amen. The One that changes not is the only One who can change us and this change is revealed by what we now do as opposed to what we did before.
We are made an example by Him who was our example so others might also be drawn to the light that now shines in us. And the light of which we have received is only shined on others by works...by the putting of the light on a candlestick(Luke 8:16) or setting it upon a hill.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who DOES THE TRUTH comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Just to clarify the legalism of God STANDS. It is man's "legalism" that falters.

Beloved Brother, be careful not to confuse anyone. If one endeavors to teach against the the legalism of man and the churches, showing rather that 'by grace we are saved - the gift of God and not of works lest we should boast' and that Salvation is in Yeshua the Messiah alone...Amen, you do well. But we must also be careful that we also teach obedience coupled with our salvation and faith, lest we do our brothers and sisters a disservice and lead them unknowingly into sin and more ungodliness... all in the name of Jesus, making Him our free pass to do as we please. So though I know your thoughts are of the Truth, yet to give an incomplete or ambiguous teaching that only some understand is to be as guilty as those who have taught that salvation comes by works alone.

When the heart is changed and has been fully converted according to the Truth then we are saved and all that the Lord has decreed we follow becomes easier and is a reflection of, even a proof of, our faith and love in and for Messiah Yeshua.

"Honor only spoken of leads to nowhere." says the Lord

"How can one say they love Me and live contrary to Me?" ~ Yeshua

So no one is confused here we MUST strive to obey God. Faith is not separate from works, rather only faith comes first. Nor is salvation separate from obedience. Even Christ, who through we have our salvation, showed us perfect obedience and taught that obedience is not optional...

i.e. Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. ~ Yeshua

'The Lord's ways are not human ways.'

The whole Bible is full of faith and obedience, but faith is never left alone...both are required by God.

James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2:
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

So then obeying the Commandments of the Lord is not legalism as men see it, but righteousness...a true reflection of ones conversion in Christ....a confession of Christ in you without words or speaking - an example of that which is written on your hearts brought forth of faith and strengthened by the Spirit which enables you to strive toward perfection, or a completion of your faiths with Yeshua as the Author and the Finisher.

For one who obeys not, has not salvation, for they have strove in vain never having been wholly converted in the first place, nor receiving of the Spirit...to this one they will be found a liar in that Day.

1 John 3:
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the Truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him. He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself to walk as He walked." (1 John 2:3-6)


"By this we know we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His Commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:2-3)

Therefore, works are a manifestation of our faiths. One can not have one without the other, lest in the Day, that comes quickly, the Lord looks upon us and says,

Mat. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

or

Mat. 25:11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

Amen, Timothy.

Pam

THERE IT IS. ... HIS VIEW *from the Top.*

thanks, Timothy.

I agree with Trent. God knows we are never going to be perfect.That is why Christ came.

Our righteousness and any Holiness that we have is because of what Jesus did. So the father calls us Holy because of jesus. He calls us Righteous because of Jesus.

In order to truely understand the scriptures, you have to look at pre covenant and new Covenant Scriptures. I take the Gospels with a grain of salt sometimes because I look at this and see Jesus fulfilling the law.

The whole thing changed after he was glorified. Many times people are trying to force New Wine intio Old Winskins