Post details: His or ours?


Permalink 05:05:38 am, Categories: GraceHead teaching, By Trent, 82 words   English (US)

His or ours?

Isaiah 53:4
In fact, it was our diseases he bore, our pains from which he suffered; yet we regarded him as punished, stricken and afflicted by God.
But he was wounded because of our crimes, crushed because of our sins; the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him, and by his bruises we are healed.

If Jesus had His own sins, then who else's sins are He qualified to take?

If Jesus had His own diseases, then who else could He heal?

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Comment from: pam [Visitor]
Hi again Trent,

I think it is the splitting of hairs that bugs me. Whether Jesus suffered for us or simply because, as it is stated in Isaiah, He is a man of sorrows well aquainted with suffering, the bottom line is He suffered all that we suffer and that is what qualifies Him as the Christ. If He were only the Son of God, He would not be the Christ. As also if He were only the Son of Man, He would not be the Christ. In Christ, the Spirit and the flesh are inseperable and the flesh is glorified by the Spirit upon resurrection. We will be like Christ.

Permalink 08/02/07 @ 10:40
Comment from: pam [Visitor]

I have to come back to this one last time. I'm slow sometimes to really pinpoint what sits wrong with me so forgive my round-about way of getting here.

When Jesus was directly abused, He did not deserve that suffering either. All of us who name Jesus Christ, take varying levels of abuse for Him when we don't derserve that abuse and we suffer. Sometimes we suffer illness innocently and at others times for wrong doing but still we suffer. All of this is the result of the curse, the consequences of man's choice to live out from under the continual direction of God. God chose to send His Son into such a world in the form of a man. The same weak form as all men who dwell underneath that same curse. He chose to do so because of His desire to restore us to Himself. Jesus willingly, (though His flesh did struggle against God's Will, by the power of the Spirit within Him, He overcame and reached submission) and Jesus suffered all that we suffer, the things we deserve to suffer and the things we don't deserve to suffer. The world was already condemned, Christ did not come to further condemn but to save the world. To condemn the suffering that is by disease as unworthy of Christ while comending the suffering by the words and deeds of others as worthy, is to deny the humanity of Christ, that part of Him that did not want to die on the cross, the part of Him that was tempted for forty days and forty nights by Satan. He suffered the flesh just as we suffer it and by the power of His Father within Him, He overcame. Yet, when He died, His flesh was not destroyed, it did not fall to the dust, for by that same power of the Spirit, His flesh was glorified. All that causes pain and death, migranes and flaming arrows all, were fully conquered.

The first Adam, though physically perfect, died spiritual death, and upon the certain physical death to follow that first death, His body fell to the dust from which it came.

The Second Adam, born of the Spirit indwelt within a woman of the lineage of the first Adam, was spiritually alive but physically weak as the curse that had been visited long upon all flesh had weakened it to the point of not even resembling the state of its Creation. Yet, by the power of God through the Holy Spirit which begot Jesus the Christ, the Son of God and the Son of Man, all weaknesses of the flesh, including disease, pride, and the vulnerability to the abuse of others, were overcome by Christ's obedience through the power of the Holy Spirit. His flesh was not lost to death either for He was not raised as a spirit that was perfect in eternity only, but as the glorified Son of Man. The Second Adam far surpasses the perfection of the first for the second Adam, though also of flesh, will not perish for the weaknesses of the flesh have become full surrender to God as to be the willing instrument of God.

God does not despise the flesh for He created it and all that God created is good. He sent His Son in fleshly form to bear the curse and destroy it that we too could have full redemption full restoration in Christ. Though my flesh appears to be crumbling, it is only a stage in the process that will lead to my complete glorification. I will awake with His likeness, the likeness of the resurrected Christ. Yet now, I live as the lowly Jesus, the man of sorrows, well aquainted with suffering and my hope is Jesus living in me, restoring that which seems to crumble daily as a part of His mission to save the world.

I don't want just half of Jesus, the Son of God or the Son of Man. I want all of Jesus and that includes my portion of suffering which comes by disease, by sin, by the suffering for righteousness sake. We walk by the Spirit but it is the flesh that walks and may my flesh be guided by the Spirit to intellectualize and talk less but instead, to reach out to those in need (even though they curse me in return), visit those in prision, and to always be mindful of the widows and orphans. On Judgement Day, Jesus will decide for the widows and orphans and that is the suffering that unites us all, no matter the crimes we have committed, we all suffer as either or both widowed and orphaned. We are alone in the world with our affliction but for Jesus.

Jesus is All God, All Spirit who came to live in flesh for He does not despise flesh but desires that all flesh be fully restored to God.

This is not legalism in any form, for it is not a work of man, but wholly a work of God.

Permalink 08/04/07 @ 11:17
Comment from: Yeshua's servent [Visitor]

But Pam you must know and understand this: Jesus came to fulfill all righteousness, prophecy, and Scripture. Therefore He had to be the perfect Lamb without spot or blemish...illness would have made Him unclean according to the Scriptures; and therefore, He had no illness of Himself just as He had no sin.

He was the perfect Lamb without spot or blemish, sacrificed...our Passover.

Go here: for a much greater understanding how Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecy and then click on the icon that says, "Jesus...MORE Than A Man"

Permalink 08/07/07 @ 23:13
Comment from: pam [Visitor]
Hi Timothy, I'm not trying to argue...the way I understand it from scripture is that Jesus the Son of God was always perfect, without spot. Jesus, the Son of Man, was perfected by His obedience that He learned through His suffering. This was perfect obedience, without sin. This made Him the spotless sacrifice. I see no reason to think any of this changed if Jesus had a cold. He did not offer Life until He had been risen, until His flesh has been fully glorified, perfected but as the Son of God Who was with the Father from the beginning, He was always perfect but the Son of Man had to be perfected by the Spirit, through the process of obedience, through perfect surrender to the Spirit, to His Father.

I am in that same process, the pattern first set down by Jesus. I have the most rotten flesh imaginable! Yet, through Christ, I will reach this same glorified state.

The flesh, though weak, is not despised of God but rather, worthy of the sacrifice of His own Son that He might save all flesh.

Permalink 08/12/07 @ 09:29
Comment from: pam [Visitor]
I will look at the study, probably tomorrow, I'm on the run right now.

The only reference to illness as sin that I can recollect, is when Jesus was healing someone and the pharisees wanted to know if the blindness was a result of the suffers sin or his parents, and Jesus said that it was neither, rather it has been appointed that God might be glorified.---I know the Pharasees viewed illness as sin but I haven't found anything scriptural in that regard...

Permalink 08/12/07 @ 10:43
Comment from: pam [Visitor]
Hi Yeshua's Servant,

I read the study posted at your site and very much enjoyed reading all of the scriptures posted together in that manner. However, I didn't find anything to change my heart and mind upon this matter. I have never denied the diety of Jesus Christ and truly, much of this seems to me to be a silly disagreement except for the fact that there are so many 'christs' being preached today. None of them deny spiritual personification but there truly is only one Christ Who submitted to manefesting in the flesh to bear the curse and to break it that all mankind could be reconciled to God.

Jesus the Son of Man suffered, and truly only Jesus the Son of Man could suffer for the Spirit does not suffer and Jesus the Son of God was wholly of His Father Who is Spirit. Jesus the Son of Man suffered and died upon the cross but He also suffered the same weaknesses of the flesh that we do. This is evident in His struggle against Satan during His temptation. Again, it was only the Son of Man Who could be tempted and not the Son of God and it was by the power of the Spirit bringing the Son of Man into perfect submission to the Father that Satan's power of temptation was overcome. There were also times when the Son of Man became tired and drained from His ministry and had to withdraw to spend time alone with His Father. The Son of God would never tire. Jesus the Son of Man also struggled at the Garden of Gisthemene because the Son of Man did not want to die. The Son of God could not die, ever. The Son of God, being divinity was always perfect, the Son of Man was perfected through suffering and obedience to become the sacrifice required; a spotless lamb.

There is no written record of Jesus having suffered illness. I do know that illness is a natural part of our suffering, the suffering of all flesh under the shadow of death. The Son of God willingly placed Himself beneath that curse and suffered angonizing death, becoming the very Door between God and man, the Door to Life that is the resurrected Jesus. This is too amazing for me to really be able to express in words all that was accomplished here but to deny the humanity, the flesh of Jesus, flesh as weak as mine, is to deny the full power and impact of His work which was the work of His Heavenly Father that will end in the restoration to God of ALL flesh. Jesus is ALL God and ALL Man and someday, Jesus the Son of Man will return. Those of us who have been made like Him will also return and this will usher in the fullness of the Kingdom of God upon the earth. How marvelous it will be to no longer struggle with the weaknesses of our flesh, sin and sickness, but to be fully and completely restored to God with our every action directed by God in the same way that He directs our every breath. Ahhh! That will be glory for me!

I don't know how to tell you of all the ways that God has used sickness in my life to form Christ in me. He has also used the suffering of sin in much the same manner. It is a kind of hollowing out of my inner person that is created by death that dwells in my flesh in the form of sin and sickness that creates an ever widening void that can only be filled by Jesus. Once the void is created and filled there is no more longing for anything but Jesus and for the Will of my dear Heavenly Father. The weaker I become, the less I desire to captian my destiny and the world has no attraction at all. The land I am looking for is God's Kingdom and that is the place my heart calls home. I am not yet perfected but with each day I draw nearer. Jesus is the joy of my journey, the Kingdom that lives in me now; but there will be no greater fulfillment of joy than when the Kingdom becomes SIGHT! All that all the saints across the ages have seen from a distanced will be fleshed out and there will be no denying the Son of Man when He returns and none will ever again question that He is also the Son of God.

God Bless, Timothy :0)

Permalink 08/13/07 @ 01:33

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