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Post details: Limitlessly Sovereign

01/13/07

01:46:42 pm, Categories: Announcements [A], By Pam
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Limitlessly Sovereign

How sovereign is the sovereignty of God? Is His sovereignty limited to choosing and calling those who make up His called out company of believers or is it extended to all human beings and indeed, to His whole creation? Does God open the eyes of a few to the saving power of Jesus Christ in the life of a woman or a man to make a few holy people to be plucked from the fire as being special persons or is this calling a detail in the larger plan of God for all of His creation?

I am one of the ekklesia. I am one of the called out company of God, one in whom Christ Jesus has been revealed. I am nothing special though by God's mercy, I have been saved. I am not even any more special than a hitler or a ted bundy. If God can show mercy upon me, then He is able to show mercy upon anyone, even Hitler and Ted Bundy. Such is the limitless power of Jesus Christ in the life of a believer. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I am a living example of the limitless mercy of God and the fullness of His Sovereignty in bestowing mercy upon sinful human beings. I am not an example of my own holiness for I have none. All of my holiness is in the person of Jesus Christ. I die daily as He reveals Himself to me and in me and is actually being formed in me. I am a work in progress and the process that is taking place in me is taking place throughout all of God's Creation, for as death passed to all through the fall of Adam, so is Life being extended to all through Jesus Who reconciled the world to God by the shedding of His blood. He laid down His Life as was Sovereignly directed by His Father, that He might take His Life up again and through the power of the Holy Spirit live not only in Heaven but also within the hearts of men and woman to whom He is revealved.

It is through Jesus Christ that God does all of His visible work. It was through Jesus that the worlds were formed and established and are held together. Jesus has been with the Father always and it is in His person and in His character that the limitless Sovereignty of God is best demonstrated as it is in Jesus Christ that God is revealed to us. It is Jesus Who opens our spiritual eyes and ears to God and causes our hearts to cry, "Abba, Father!' None other than Jesus has the power to open those eyes and ears and this power is given to Him by the Father Who is in all things Sovereign.

The constant amazement to me of my walk with Jesus is the blinding and then sight giving process that is Christ being formed in me. I can read a scripture thousands of times and not see it. I don't mean not comprehend it but literally not see it until just the right moment that God has chosen to reveal it to me. I am no more Sovereign over my own spiritual growth than I was over the moment that I first believed in Jesus. In that moment, though I had almost no knowledge of God, I was completely saved from the curse of sin and death. In fact it was not in that moment of revelation that I was saved, in truth, it was my true condition that was revealed to me. I found out that I am a child of God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ by which the world has been reconciled to God and the Way of salvation opened to all.

At the moment of my personal revelation, I began seeking the personal direction of God in my life. In that seeking, I have found that He has in fact always directed my life and all of the mistakes I have made, all of the evil I have feared and committed, all of my blindness and deafness, were all under the Sovereign direction of God. All of the purpose of demonstrating the power of Jesus in my life as He pours out His mercy upon me in each instance. God's Soveregnty has no limits in or over me.

Though my eyes and ears have not yet been fully opened and I am often blind and deaf to God, as to His design in the life of another human being, I am learning to trust the character of Jesus Christ beyond what my mind can know. God is not a respecter of persons and He is sovereign over all and able to reveal to each what is in His plan to reveal and very able to bring every woman and man to the point of bending the knee and confessing Jesus as Lord; just as He brought me to that point in my life. Though someone I love seems to be far from God, I no longer fret. I know that the Jesus Who loves me also loves them more than I and I am learning to trust the process of Jesus being revealed in me enough to trust that same process in all and over all. As He has made me who was once a vessel of dishonor through His mercy a vessel of honor, so too is He able to cleanse and put to good use every dishonorable vessel. He knows exactly what is required in the life of each individual to bring them to their moment of revelation as the Kingdom is established in each heart through Jesus.

There is no limit to the Sovereign love, mercy, justice, and righteousness of God and none of those characteristics are in conflict within the person of Jesus Christ; but are conflicting only in the limited character of humankind seeking self-direction rather than surrendering to the personal direction of God. In the fullness of the dispensation of time, that limit of human conflict will also be shown to be folly as Christ's Kingdom is fully revealed and all men will see it together. Amen.

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16 comments

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Comment from: Trent [Member] · http://www.GraceHead.com

Hello Pam,

"""If God can show mercy upon me, then He is able to show mercy upon anyone, even Hitler and Ted Bundy."""

I have a question:
Provided that God would pour out wrath on a man (or satan, himself) whose heart He chose to hardened ... how does that limit His sovereignty?

Better yet, how is God's sovereignty preserved provided that He is UNable to create an object of wrath?

God has chosen to reconcile the entire world to Himself ... but reconciliation is not salvation - Romans 5:10.

Ripening for the harvest,
Trent

01/14/07 @ 16:05

Comment from: Pam [Member]

Hey Trent,

I agree that salvation is for the church only however, I think God's plan is larger than His called out company just as it was larger than His chosen people. I believe that our salvation is part of a redemptive plan that is larger than our own redemption. That is my own conclusion, it is where God has led me by His Spirit, in the events of my life, and my personal study of scripture. It is where I find myself at this point in my life. I didn't choose it and I am as surprised by it as anyone else. When I began to walk with Jesus, my concept of His plan was very small, it included only me now as I am older my concept has become much larger and more inclusive however, it is still centered upon Jesus. He is the constant of my Christian growth.

Human beings can't limit God's Sovereignty; if there were to be any limits they would be set by God Himself. I don't know everything and I never will, on this earth. If I were to know God fully with this brain of flesh and blood, my head would explode. I no longer however, limit God to a head that easily explodes.*shrug* I prefer to trust Jesus and measure anything that I do know according to His character. I also have to remain true to what He reveals to me. I don't ask anyone to follow me but to listen to only Jesus. None of my words will have any effect except those to whom He gives to hear. Even then, those persons will not be made like me by my words but be used by God as He directs in each individual life.

Wrath doesn't limit God's sovereignty. I fully accepted that as being wholly good if that is what God chooses. I still believe that those who are outside of Christ will experience wrath but not with the same conclusion that I once saw.I now see it differently. God made me and I was once very much a vessel of wrath by the choices that I made through the exercise of the free will He so graciously grants all of us. God didn't make me a vessel of wrath, I did. God has made me a vessel of honor despite me through Jesus. I still deserve wrath but God has Sovereignly chosen to show me mercy and He knew exactly what it would take in my life to make a hard headed little lady like me reach the point where I knew I needed His mercy.

We come from very different tutelage regarding our Christian upbringing. I don't think we will ever agree on this for to do so, we would each have to throw everything we believe away and adopt the others whole view point. In fact, I don't think you and I have ever had a lot of doctrinal agreement but we have always agreed on Jesus. I have learned a lot from you, from reading what you write and our conversations but what I have learned is added to what God teaches me personally through His Holy Spirit. I hope what I say is also beneficial to you but I never want to change you. I want God to have free reign in you that He might bring you to the conclusion that He desires in you.

My personal theology is in constant flux and reflects who I have grown to be as a person. I don't think it is unusual for older saints to become much more inclusive in their later years. I now see the plan of God as it unfolds to be much grander and much, much wider than anything my natural mind could conceive of. Perhaps, I'm to be quiet about that, I'm not sure yet. However, it will seep through whatever I write because this is who I am today. I haven't bagged anything that I learned before, this is the natural conclusion to my spiritual growth over many years. What God whispers in my ear, I shout from the rooftops and I've been doing that for a very long time now. I am not sure if there is a point where what God whispers to me should be only between He and I. I do know that He is whispering many wonderful things to me as of late and I have peace that I have never had before.

Pam

01/14/07 @ 17:46

Comment from: bruced [Visitor] · http://blog.ybmt.org/

I'm so glad you're seeing it, Pam.

Great peace to you, my friend!

01/14/07 @ 19:47

Comment from: SteveW [Visitor] · http://blog.tableserver.com/index.php

Trent, could it be that the way in which God poured the wrath for us all upon His Son only demonstates His soveriegnty all the more?

God is well able to create an object of wrath and He is also well able to create something much greater...mercy through His Son that triumps over judgment.

To me those things demonstrate and illustrate His sovereignty to the uttermost.

01/14/07 @ 20:21

Comment from: Pam [Member]

Hey Bruce,

"Do you see what I see?" Probably not exactly, I don't think any of us can quite see what another sees but it is truly wonderful what Jesus reveals to each of us in the special way that only we can understand. It's good to share what He shows us and it is natural to human beings to look for confirmation in each other, but I think we'd bicker less if we would just share and leave it there, fully realizing that none of us can fully understand God but He gives each of us our little piece of understanding and all of those pieces find completion in the person of Jesus Christ. He truly is the All in all.:0)

Pam

01/14/07 @ 21:03

Comment from: SteveW [Visitor] · http://blog.tableserver.com/index.php

Our friend Andre from the "Hear Him" blog says the following in his latest post. To me it is a wonderful statement to God's sovereignty.

"He was not a very ambitious Creator, but unfortunately a bit naïve in what could eventually be accomplished. He did not just make a complete provision in Christ, but ultimately will lose out because that provision is rejected by the vast majority of mankind. He is as able and resourceful to accomplish the reconciliation of all things, as He was able to create all things and as He is able to actively sustain all things. Evil is temporal – God is eternal. Paul knows nothing of a weak gospel that accomplishes less than God’s original intent. God would be an absolute failure if His plan made provision for 100% but he only realised 15% of its potential. He will be just as successful in the future as He was in Christ!

This reconciliation is not just a potential reconciliation or a future hope; it is accomplished and effected ‘through the blood of His cross’. Undoubtedly we need to take hold of it, mix our faith with it to experience the full benefit of it. ‘ … the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.’ ( Hebrews 4:2) Yet truth remains truth, whether we believe it or not."

01/14/07 @ 21:05

Comment from: Pam [Member]

Ah Steve,

You know, truly I think we believers stumble over words and concepts and are often times saying the same thing but in different ways. I agree that religion paints God as a overly lenient father who then over-reacts to his own leniency by torturing those children with whom he failed. You and I trip over one another on the time line thing. I see both the eternal perspective of God and all things having been already accomplished by Him as He sits outside of time and the human perspective of future hope. On the sixth day He finished His creative work and on the seventh day He rested. God finished His creation from start to finish and sits outside of time resting, while I who am yet living in this mortal body am within the process of that completed creation. What God has completed, I will see in my future and will fully realize when I realize the fullness of my eternal nature given to me through Jesus. I see now only in part as do all of us. God must have Himself a good belly laugh when we all get to arguing over what we can't yet clearly see. Yes, my future hope has been completed in Christ yet, I still look ahead for the fullness of it. I think we agree when our words and theology don't quite agree. Does that make sense? However, we can agree, I think that it is all about Jesus. Whatever God gives us to know is for the purpose of Christ being formed in us. The Truth is Jesus by Whom all truths should be measured. If any truth I seem to know doesn't measure up according to His character, then I truly don't understand that particular truth as of yet. That doesn't mean that it is untrue for the truth isn't relative but I as I grow spiritually am relative to that truth.

As I told, Trent he and I are of very different tutelages. I am a Biblicist and I know that is how God directed me in my study of scripture. As a Biblicist, I have always approached scripture as a history of God's people and there was always more included than my future hope for a home in heaven.---argh! I think I may be getting bogged down here.---but even though I am a Biblicist, that doesn't mean I am led by the spirit of Biblicism, it has always been the Holy Spirit that led me and it is that same Spirit working in all believers that teaches us what we need to know, not that we should have perfect knowledge or theology, but that Christ be formed in each of us. Jesus is the unifying factor among believers and is in fact, the unifying factor of everything that is made for ALL things are held together by Him. No matter how different someone is from me, I can have unity with them when that unity is Jesus. I know many Biblicists with whom I have little unity for Jesus has not yet revealed Himself to them. Am I making sense?

You know I have been stretching for the 'all' piece of Christ's work for quite awhile and last spring it all fell together and I felt a bit like I'd discovered penicillin...you probably remember. Anyway, I've done some reading since then and at this point in my life, I find myself very much in agreement with A.E. Knoch and the other old Christian Universalists and that agreement is in Jesus (without Whom there would be no discussion about Armenienism, Calvinism, or Universalism) and the same approach to scripture that I have. I'm just an old fashioned girl, Steve what can I say?

I've rambled a lot here and I don't know if I've concluded anything any clearer but what I'm trying to say is that theological bent doesn't mean much to me, it is Jesus that I look for in others because what I care about and long for in regards to all is that Jesus be revealed to them and in them, not that I think they are unacceptable to me otherwise but only that they could know the fullness of indestructible joy that is only found in Him. It's really okay if someone doesn't agree with me but I hope that no matter what they think of me that my life and my words would point them to Jesus, as He said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me." Whatever I learn, I only want to participate in that lifting and observe as all men are drawn to Him.

Sorry, Steve I've been quiet for a few months and you know how we women are...

Love In Christ,
Pam

01/14/07 @ 22:10

Comment from: Steve [Visitor] · http://blog.tableserver.com/index.php

You have nothing to apologize to me for Pam. I appreciate your heart for our Savior and the way in which you have been expanding your mind and it's understanding.

We all usually start out at some point in our adult life's with a certain amount of narrow thinking which probably only serves to limit a glorious God who has no limits. If we think He is bound by our presuppositions we are all going to be greatly surprised (and I think we will anyhow).

I am so happy that we are growing much more appreciative and patient with one another considering that the only way we have been able to communicate is Through the web, which often leaves so much to be desired.

Keep up the good work Pam. I consider both you and Trent as my friends. May we all continue to work that Christ might be revealed in all, through all and to all.

Peace & grace
;-)

01/15/07 @ 12:35

Comment from: lisa Brookins [Visitor]

Hi all,
I've tried to read the posts and comments to this particular thread... but my eyes are crossing. There's a bunch of big words in here that caused me to sort of glaze over.... but one thing stood out that Pam mentioned in one of her posts... (Naturally I can't find it to cut and paste, now) but something about jesus knowing exactly what it would take to humble that hard headed lady to turn to Him or something...

How I can amen that! For so many years I'd been busy in church--and miserable. I thought I had the Good News gospel. I thought I was doing 'right'. God let me go as long as it took, before He sent His good news of reconciliation to me. That in itself humbled me more so than I can express. To think--He Who keeps the universe intact, who is bringing together broken marriages, curing illnesses, and all the other wonderful works He's engaged in... still cared enough about me to reach through my debris in my life and present me with the Life Giving Living Water.

See, the thing is, although I was miserable on the inside, i was a pretty good actress on the outside (or I thought so, anyways) I led ministries, taught Sunday School, had quiet time... you know---all those things that the "Phantom Christian" does without effort. I wasn't hurting anyone. But God knew that I was crying on the inside, and I didn't know why. How marvelous is His love for us!
Blessings!
Lisa

01/15/07 @ 21:36

Comment from: C Grace [Visitor] · http://contemplativetraditions.blogspot.com/

"I believe that our salvation is part of a redemptive plan that is larger than our own redemption."

We are called a royal preisthood and I wonder if the Church doesn't act in it's own way as intercessors, mediators for the rest of humanity. In the parable of the sheep and the goats it is the nations (not the church) that are being judged and they are being judged basically on how they treated God's people. Paul too mentions in I Cor that He is the aroma of Christ to those who are being made alive. I take it that from this that there are those who love God in their heart, who are being made alive by the Spirit, but who do not yet recognize that God is the one who they love. These people are drawn to those who are living like Christ.(although they may reject the idea of Christ given to them by people who know of Him but don't know Him)

01/17/07 @ 11:29

Comment from: C Grace [Visitor] · http://contemplativetraditions.blogspot.com/

One thing I have thought about is that God's wrath, His justice can never be separated from His love. The hard things that He sends us as well as the good things are always meant to bring us back to Him.

Hosea 2:6 "Therefore I will block her path with thornbushes; I will wall her in so that she cannot find her way. 7 She will chase after her lovers but not catch them; she will look for them but not find them. Then she will say, 'I will go back to my husband as at first, for then I was better off than now.'

When we start loving things more then Him, when we get caught up with wanting admiration, power, pleasure etc., He brings us circumstances to cut us off and bring us to the point where we start looking for Him again.

It seems to me the potential is always there for everyone to gain what God has for them, even for someone like Hitler. The question is, "How much of it will we take hold of?"

01/17/07 @ 11:50

Comment from: Pam [Member]

Hi Grace,

I think the important thing that you mentioned is that we are drawn to Christ and that drawing is the work of the Holy Spirit. When we accept Christ, we think it to be a wise choice on our part that benefits us, or that's the way I thought of it. In reality, we are drawn to Christ as a part of the work that God has designated to be done in Christ on the earth. We are drawn to Christ that He might demonstrate to the world His mercy. Romans chpt 11, I believe gives us a clear picture of the full purpose of Christ's church. This chapter also gives context to election that is spoken of in chpts. 8,9, & 10.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.

I believe, from my study of scripture under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit and by the measure of the Character of Jesus Christ as I have known Him these thirty some years, that God has hardened some that He might show mercy on some that He might show mercy upon all. The church are the 'some' upon whom He has chosen to show His mercy and salvation is to the church as the law is to the Jews. As sin coupled with death was passed down to all through Adam, then so will Life be given to all through Christ Jesus. I believe that in the coming age, after the darkness of the tribulation period, there will be an age when Law and Grace will be melded together into a rod of iron which Christ will hold in His hand as the Kingdom that now lives in the hearts of believers becomes sight. I believe that it will be in that age that Christ will redeem all that has been reconciled to God through the shedding of His blood. It is at the end of that age that hades will be thrown into the lake of fire and death will consume its self for the death of death is the second death and when death is no more, there will only be Life and Christ's work will be fully accomplished as God's Creation is returned fully to Him no longer under the curse of sin and death.

This is what God says to me. Don't take my word for it however, go directly to God and He will give you the answers you're looking for.:0)

Pam

01/17/07 @ 12:06

Comment from: Pam [Member]

Hi again Grace,

Aren't we blessed to have our eyes opened to God? Without faith, how could anyone apprehend the good things that God gives us even in the midst of that which is highly painful.

I highly agree with your take upon God's wrath. It is so easy for us to become overly focused on one aspect or another of God's character but in reality, all of His characteristics are held in perfect balance. All of the things in scripture that seem to contradict one another are held in perfect tension within Christ and He is the Truth. We human beings tend to only be able to see one thing at a time and then we fiercely defend our limited view. That is why I trust Christ's character more than what my brain can know and I find that in that trusting, He reveals to me things that my natural mind can't fully understand. God is ultimate good and the completion of His work on earth will reflect His nature perfectly and won't be hampered by the limited understanding of human beings.

I really enjoyed your thoughtful comments, Grace and I've saved your blog on my favorites. I'll be popping in to read more of what God has to say to you and through you.:0)

God Bless,
Pam

01/17/07 @ 12:34

Comment from: Pam [Member]

Grace,

I've just come back from visiting your blog and I wanted to leave a comment and after I'd written it, I noticed that you don't allow anonymous comments so I lost it all. I did notice however, in your response to Trent that you believe that what is taking place in believers is a microcosm of what is taking place in the entire Creation. I was terribly excited as I see that also! Hope to talk to you again soon.

Pam

01/17/07 @ 21:38

Comment from: Patti Blount [Visitor] · http://www.thissamejesus.blogspot.com

Yes, God can do all of this, but what is His Will? I know we don't want to get into the "God hardened Pharoah's heart" conversation. Paul said he doesn't even judge himself, but turns himself over to the just judge. Whatever God does decide will be just in the matters that are His to decide. I believe He's shown us His decision by asking us to accept His son, Jesus, by faith, and then giving us the faith to do that. For those who have never heard, I believe that God will deal with them as He wills. Isn't that true Sovereignty? Letting God be God no matter what. Do we have to know how He is going to reconcile all matters? All I know is that there is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus His son; the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Yes, He did die for all the sins of the world, but I believe they have to respond. No, I don't take credit for saving myself, and I do believe He chose me. I can't speak for His other choices. I think universalism should not be taught as truth. We don't really know all about that, do we? As Job said, "I have spoken of things too great for me."

07/15/07 @ 21:14

Comment from: Pam [Member]

Hi Patti,

Every time I speak of God, I guess I have spoken of things too great for me. I am nothing speacial yet, God presses it upon me to speak of the things He reveals to me. As I have grown in Him over the past thirty plus years consequent to that first revelation of Jesus Christ to me and in me, my view of His plan has changed greatly. At first, I saw Jesus as a good choice I had made. Later I learned that He has chosen me. Now as an older woman, I see that my salvation is merely a small part of a much larger plan. I don't fullly know the end of that plan but I do see enough to give me more than a slim hope that all will be redeemed to and by God.

I would never promote universalism as ultimate truth for any kind of 'ism' is of man and his/her small and limited understanding of the great and only Living God. Calvinism and Armenianism are of the same limitation. I promote Jesus and faith in Him. He is the only Truth, the ultimate and living Truth. Truth that is a person while the truths of man are generally only agreed upon facts and abstract concepts that change and fade with time. In Jesus only is Truth that transends all time. Truth that is too great to be held within any 'ism'.

I belong to Jesus and that is generally enough of a label for me. I am a Christian but I am now nearer the end of my life on earth than to the beginning and God is revealing to me how much greater His plan is than my individual destiny or even the destiny of the church. God desires that none should perish and he is fully capable of fulfilling all of His desires. There are as many verses in the Bible that point to the eventual recovery of not only the totality of mankind but indeed of the entire creation as there are verses that speak of ultimate destruction. The quandry is in how to reconcile them. Most attach themselves to one set and throw out the others. Jesus will not allow me to do so but instead has shown me that all verses that seem to contradict are in fact merely different perspectives of the Truth that is only He. I know Who will sit upon the Judgement Seat at the end of time and I hear Him say, "He who is without sin, caste the first stone." I remember these words and know that the Righteous Judgement enacted by Jesus will be nothing like any justice imagined by sinful man. I also consider Jonah and the message of destruction that God gave Him, not to bring about the destruction of Nineveh but to bring those people to repentance. The Bible says, that every knee will bend and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord. Is that anything but repentance?

Nothing man can do can thwart the wrath of God. It is only His Mercy that triumphs over certain Judgment and my faith and hope is in the sure Mercy of God that endures forever.

Peace in Christ Jesus,

Pam

07/15/07 @ 23:55

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01/13/07

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